Bronco killer/JL w Independent suspension, wider, longer (Grand Wrangler)

[2nd 392]

I don’t understand people,

“ I love the idea and persona of Jeeps, but I wish it was more like a Cadillac Escalade. I have so many great ideas on how to make the Jeep less Jeep like.”

2030 Jeep Wrangler DJ— impressed ?

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[wibornz]

For those that have noticed that every other brand is making there vehicles more JEEP like.
Bigger tires than needed, blacked out Pathfinders, poke on everything, I seen a Subaru yesterday with a rear recovery hook.

The recovery hook on Subarus are for pulling Broncos out. After all they run the same trails.

 

[wibornz]

Poke in an un-wheeled Jeep, yes. Poke in a Jeep that gets wheeled, actually smart. Wheeling in the southeast means spending a good amount of time with your Jeep slammed against clay embankments. Poke keeps the fenders out of the embankment.

Yes it does.

 

[wibornz]

Little column A, a little column B. Most Toyotas don't get used hard, true enough. And the ones that do get used hard, eventually will fail. But also, one of those Broncos broke after a small whoop, but others have been pushed pretty hard to similar results...

I have been to Moab three times. I have seen thousands of tricked out Toyotas in the town of Moab. Never seen a Toyota on a trail rated harder than a four. Not one time. It was to a point that if we saw a Toyota on a trail, we would say where is the Subaru at. Then sure enough, we would run across a Subaru, or a VW camper bus, or Sprinter van somewhere along the trail.


When Toyotas get wheeled hard, they start adding chevy parts. Axles, motors and what not.

 

[jeepingib]

I have been to Moab three times. I have seen thousands of tricked out Toyotas in the town of Moab. Never seen a Toyota on a trail rated harder than a four. Not one time. It was to a point that if we saw a Toyota on a trail, we would say where is the Subaru at. Then sure enough, we would run across a Subaru, or a VW camper bus, or Sprinter van somewhere along the trail.


When Toyotas get wheeled hard, they start adding chevy parts. Axles, motors and what not.

100% absolutely. It's just the nature of the situation. IFS is inherently less capable and weaker than SFA. Any brand of IFS is going to start having to extensively modify and replace stock running gear when trying to run 37s on difficult trails. Which is so much more expensive and difficult when compared to the SFA in Jeeps. Your Jeep is a prime example of this. I know that you recently upgraded your axles, but you hit so many difficult trails with thousands of highway miles, and ran a relatively modest amount of upgrades to support it. A relative bargain compared to what would be needed to do something similar for either of the Bronco or Toyota, and those would still be less reliable, and have worse performance.

 

[OrneryBear]

2030 Jeep Wrangler DJ— impressed ?

Ugh. That top one is a student design project and the bottom is a crappy photochop.

none of that is from jeep's design studio.

 

[2nd 392]

Ugh. That top one is a student design project and the bottom is a crappy photochop.

none of that is from jeep's design studio.

….

 

[deserteagle56]

So an updated M151 Mutt, then?

Now THAT brings back some memories from 50+ years ago! And yes, that suspension caused them to roll over so easily compared to other vehicles. That model Jeep is one I would not want to drive today...but I would love to have that "accessory" mounted in the back of the Jeep on the right on my own Wrangler today when driving in traffic!

From my personal archives:

 

[2nd 392]

Now THAT brings back some memories from 50+ years ago! And yes, that suspension caused them to roll over so easily compared to other vehicles. That model Jeep is one I would not want to drive today...but I would love to have that "accessory" mounted in the back of the Jeep on the right on my own Wrangler today when driving in traffic!

From my personal archives:

Caused my cousin a fractured back, other injuries, months of recovery, medical discharge, and a lifetime of back problems. A rollover waiting to happen.
My MD (M38A1) didn’t come with the military accessories either.

 

[Tech Tim]

As speculated Toyota seems to be a more direct threat to The Bronco then the Wrangler.

That's because Jeep people are Jeep people.

 

[STW]

Why would it be the end of solid axle?
Wouldn't there be a lot of demand for it?...

Yes, there would be a lot of demand for it, but only from people like us here. And by ourselves, off-roaders are not a big enough market to keep the Wrangler a solid axle vehicle.

Assume that corporate management are always looking for a way to discontinue a niche feature that limits the Wrangler's appeal to some buyers.

The vast majority of that larger market do not off-road and do not know why a solid axle is valuable for some kinds of off-roading.

But even so, that larger market does value the Jeep Wrangler as an icon for the looks, the perceived toughness, attitude, and for 85 years of Jeep heritage and tradition, even for people who don't know history or care about it. That's the only reason the Wrangler is still in production--because general market sales, not because of off-road enthusiast sales. Even Barbie drives one.

That general market LOVES the Jeep Wrangler and will keep buying it for its coolness, even if it has solid axles and rocks back and forth when driven cross-ways over the speed bump:
"Why does it rock back and forth like that?" asked Barbie.
"I don't know," answered Ken.
"It's because of the solid axle" explained ZandCWhite.
Oh wait, neither ZandCWhite, nor any of the rest of us will be there to explain to Barbie and Ken why the Wrangler has a solid axle.

...maybe it shouldn't be compared to Bronco but it is in direct competition to it. Losing sales to it. Jeep is hurting..I dont want solid axle to go away..why would it..?

Forget the current new Bronco--sure it represents a big market challenge but take the long view. This issue has long been the problem with Jeeps. Back in the CJ days, even the big caddy-like Wagoneers had solid axles so the axle wasn't an issue, but those CJ-5s and 7s were considered almost un-drivable on the street and highway, due perceived comfort and handling deficits. The YJ saved the classic Jeep, creating the Wrangler brand and keeping this old school vehicle seem like it could still be relevant. Then the TJ was a huge step up in road-ability with coil springs replacing leaf springs. That leaf-less wonder freaked out the traditionalists but it turned out to save the Wrangler for a while longer because coils made the solid axle better (in most ways) both on the trail and the street. The ZJ Grand Cherokee that preceded the TJ showed the way with solid axles with coils, and was well reviewed for road handling. Back then there were still people around who knew why the solid axle is worth having, but few do now. The later CJs and all Wranglers have always been on the edge the general public's perception of road-worthiness, even if we all like to drive them. It would be ironic if the solid axle was lost after the JL since the JL has it dialed--so smooth and tight and better on the freeway than any of us would have believed they could be. Yet this forum has frequent threads from new JLU drivers freaking out about handling.

Look around now, what do you see with a solid front axle? The old Bronco had one, not now. The old Land Cruiser had one, not now. The 4Runner had one, not now. The Land Rover Defender had one, not now. The Grand Cherokee had one, not now.

What happens when they make an IFS vehicle called a Wrangler with bolty-bits that make it look like you could lower the windshield? The solid-axle version will get dropped within a model year, and JL Forum will then be like any 4Runner and Taco forum--threads on how to bolt on a solid axle to replace your IFS mixed with threads on how to improve the IFS enough until you can afford a transplant. Pretty soon after that, Stellantis will lay some nicely textured concrete into the Rubicon Trail so it still has some pretty bumps, and Jeep corporate can still brag that no Wrangler can't do the Rubicon.

TLDR: The now-niche feature of solid axles don't have a big enough market draw on their own to stay. Even as an option. They should but they don't.

 

[Willys.JLU.2021]

all good points. Very good explanation of the Wrangler situation. Half or more buy it despite the solid axle and the other because of it. I believe styling wise, Jeep should box up more models and be inpired by Wrangler but I totally get the passion of "leave Wrangler alone" and if you want to compete w Bronco, put an ICE engine in the new Recon. I think thats the answer. Recon is inspired by Wrangler but has the plusses of Bronco. Really appreciate the detailed dive. Ive owned a CJ7 , a YJ, a TJ and now a JL. So what you said hit home.

 

[Jtphoto]

I think some people on here give the buying public too much credit. Most of them really don’t notice the ride difference in stock form. Until they bolt on those 24” wheels and it rides like a hay wagon.
The fact is this first quarter of this year Wrangler sales are up 1% of segment market share while Bronco has lost 10% share and Toyota has taken that from Ford.
Yes Wrangler sales are down BUT so is everyone else. In this economy climate a lot of people just cant afford ANY new vehicle.
If Jeep can maintain Jeep sales with a straight axle why would they change something that keeps the relevant, and different from all others. Remember , people buy things also for bragging rights, they want the best off roader even if it is just to drive down the street it’s whole life. Why buy a Rubicon when a Sahara is much more plush? Because the Rubicon is still King.

 

[NPC 20883467]

Now THAT brings back some memories from 50+ years ago! And yes, that suspension caused them to roll over so easily compared to other vehicles. That model Jeep is one I would not want to drive today...but I would love to have that "accessory" mounted in the back of the Jeep on the right on my own Wrangler today when driving in traffic!

From my personal archives:

I seem to recall instructions that were very clear about NOT getting this unit even the slightest bit airborne...

Cool picture; thanks for sharing.

 

[Jtphoto]

If nothing else Ford / Bronco has proven to Jeep that an IFS carbon copy of the Wrangler will not out sell the straight axle version.

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